User talk:Ardhanarishvara

Turtle Armor edits

I'd argue, considering that beetle armor is similarly available pre-plantera but is counted in the four sets mentioned, that the entire claim that there are only four valid endgame armors is subjective in itself and needs to be revised everywhere it's mentioned. The main issue I had was comparing Turtle Armor to Chlorophyte Armor solely on the statistics of their parts' individual bonuses, when armor starts being driven entirely by the combined set bonuses halfway to Hardmode. Perhaps "subjective" was the incorrect word for it- rather, I'd say it's patent nonsense to compare a dedicated tanking armor with one that averages about two-thirds of the defense but has a purely offensive set bonus. You could just as easily make the case that since Palladium armor regenerates your health indefinitely, this functional invincibility that it grants makes it the true tank set and the most powerful of the five endgame armors. Which armor is "best" is entirely a subjective matter because they're all designed to do different things.

If I'm actually being dead honest, though, I didn't really care enough to read all the stuff you added, and I don't care enough about this to go back and do anything about it. I removed it because those sorts of comparisons are better suited for guides, as stated in the edit summary. It's a page about Turtle Armor, not the other armor sets in question, and an in-depth mathematical comparison of them against each other or an analysis of the necessity of aggro in singleplayer isn't really suited for any of their individual pages, any more than peoples' sick builds and fantasy rainbow castles are suitable to be added to the House page. I'm not in the mood to get in an edit war over it, though, so I'll yield and leave it be. Take some solace in the fact that your edits are safe until some anon editor blanks the page to inform everyone that the actual crafting recipe is 10000 poops and 5 dylan was here.

Thank you for your contributions. In the future, please sign talk page comments with four tildes (~~~~). --Gearzein (talk) 09:58, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Which sets are "endgame", "tanking", etc are subjective themselves. These aren't in-game terms, and aren't necessary, so we can simply remove them, especially if there is disagreement over them. They're simply not worth arguing and edit-warring over. Readers can view the statistics and decide for themselves how they'd like to categorize armor sets, and which situations each set is suited for. The major problem for me, with Ardhanarishvara's version, was that it caused the article to focus on another item (chlorophyte armor) being superior; when articles should focus on facts about the current item. I've therefore cut the article down to the bare indisputable facts. As Gearzein states, I would generally agree that such analyses and comparisons are more suited to guide pages. A guide on analyzing armor options might actually be a good idea. Equazcion ^(talk) 10:32, 3 Jan 2015 (UTC)

But that doesn't hold up, Gearzein. Beetle ISN'T available Pre-Plantera unless you're bringing keys in from another world (keys rewarded for DEFEATING PLANTERA) which may potentially count as cheating, or otherwise abusing some manner of game breaking oversight. Just because you can take keys from another world or player doesn't make the armour you get from doing so pre-Plantera. It is patently post-Plantera because you can only unlock Golem and thereby Beetle armour after fighting Plantera at least once.

Not only that, but just because one is tanking and one is offense doesn't make them incomparable. As roles in multiplayer there is a good reason to have one or the other, but in single player this just isn't the case. One is most definitely better than the other overall, since it is only lacking in one single area in single player, because the other factor does not come into play. Enemies to not chase NPCs, they merely appear that way because they're going the opposite direction of you. Furthermore it is silly to mention Chlorophyte's average defence, since we are not comparing the non-melee class helms. We are comparing very specifically the melee sets, for which two-thirds is not an accurate number. It is just over 4/5ths the defence, and by rounding could be said to be 9/10ths. It is nearly the same - the difference in negation is negligible to the point of insignificance.

And also, I wasn't arguing which set was best overall. Beetle is provably better than either Turtle or Chlorophyte by base stats alone, and the Beetle Might buff clearly outperforms the Leaf Crystal buff. To bring up an argument of which is "best", and then cite Palladium of all things, when such an argument was never present, is very silly. And, addressing that Palladium example, the effect is only half again better than the Regeneration Potion, and doesn't apply unless you're hitting enemies at all times, leaving you with lulls in combat that will average out its healing over a longer period of time to even less than 10hp/5sec. Regeneration Potions, on the other hand, can be used with any armour and is cheap and easy to make.

Palladium's offensive stats are roughly equal compared to even Turtle Armour, but its defence stat pales considerably - it is just under half that of Turtle's, meaning that without accessories that grant defence, wearing Palladium over turtle will result in an increase of 16 damage per hit. For actual tanking, Turtle is still better even in single player, as Palladium will only make a difference in the long term if you're not actively taking hits, which kind of makes it pointless as a tanking set. That is a very thoughtless and again very silly comparison to make - meanwhile, the one between Turtle and Chlorophyte is not, because they are far closer in defensive capabilities, and it is a very common comment and mistake to make that Turtle would be better, especially given the lingering sentiments of those who had played prior to the nerf of Turtle's defence and the introduction of Beetle, which amount to Beetle armour being this magical tier beyond, an extra set that somehow provides evidence towards Red's supposed favouritism of Melee.

The primary effect of Turtle that is what actively makes it a tanking set is completely lost in single player, which makes it otherwise just a set that is completely offensively weaker in every way from another set but with a slightly higher defence stat - the difference of which isn't even great enough to be worth mention, especially when the Leaf Crystal of Chlorophyte will prevent many enemies from ever hitting you in the first place. It isn't even a tank set at that point, and if it somehow still is, tanking is still far less preferable in the first place to the defense philosophy of "kill things before they even reach you". The only time it isn't is when it comes with the extra bonus of drawing enemies away from squishier teammates. The thorns set effect isn't even worth mentioning, as every class can call out a single summon and that'll do far more than an enemy bumping into you ever will except for perhaps having the Ice Queen spinning on top of you but really why would you ever want that? The damage she does relative to your health and the damage you'd reflect relative to her health isn't even comparable and wouldn't make any noticeable difference.

In single player, one of these sets is demonstrably better than the other in nearly every conceivable way. This isn't subjective. It's cold, hard fact. Turtle's numbers and potential applications simply don't hold up most situations compared to Chlorophyte in single player.

Beetle Shell is the best tanking set, period, but that was never the argument. At least Beetle Shell has something to it compared to Beetle Scalemail, even in Single Player. Turtle and Chlorophyte, on the other hand, do not. This is an unfortunate truth. Which of THESE TWO is better is not subjective. It is objective. Additionally, objectively speaking, Turtle is not an endgame set either, for reasons I have already outlined in previous arguments. I apologize - especially to Equazcion - for taking way more space out of the article than was strictly needed to make this evident, but the armour IS a noob trap, and far too many players suffer from its poor stats in single player as is due to being misled about its worth and effectiveness.

I would lastly like to make the argument that... I myself am not too aware of many players who actually look at guides beyond the "getting started" one. I don't have much evidence to back this, but I doubt that many players actually would look up a dedicated guide to figure out which armour is better. That said, I think you grossly overestimate the average player's willingness to look at numbers and do math to figure out EXACTLY which is better. Most people would rather be told, hence my issue with the "endgame armour" claim.

TL;DR My primary concern was the misinformation claiming that Turtle was better than it actually was, and that's been addressed satisfactorily, but some part of me still thinks that there should be a short comment about the similarity in stats between Turtle and Chlorophyte and how the player should base their choice regarding which armour to craft on what game mode they're playing and their willingness to put themselves through the added tedium of acquiring both, or at least a link to a separate article assessing that issue put up near the initial description.

Ardhanarishvara (talk) 22:21, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

The separate article you'd prefer would be the guide that Equazcion and I both suggested you write. All the material removed from that page and all the paragraphs you just wrote would probably be perfectly suited for Guide:Endgame Armor or something along those lines, just not for a main page. Plenty of mainspace pages link to guides, because the objective is to keep the information on main pages clean, concise and easily parsed by someone who probably just wants to know the hard numbers and the crafting recipe. Think logically- if the average reader isn't going to bother looking at a guide to figure these things out, then putting the same wall of text on the main page is just going to make them not bother to read that either. Gearzein (talk) 22:54, 6 January 2015 (UTC)